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Kassen
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 Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:12 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: |
Yes, good points. A lot of his output of serious works were about exploring the boundries of music. Some of his stuff can truly be called experimental. This doesn´t mean that it is good music or even music. But yet again, after some 20-30 years the aesthetics of his music are getting absorbed by our popular culture and we tend to think about this as music. If we are to take this dude seriously, wouldn´t it make sense to question this? He did. |
I think Cage's work with turntables dates back to something like '39? That's a interesting example because I think it's safe to say him asigning people to controll the pitch of a turntable was intended to explore the edges of music while the act of controling a turntable's pitch is now getting quite close to being accepted as musical expression if done well.
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mosc
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DrJustice
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| Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | I notice that there are some people here who feel very srongly that music must be defined. |
That must be the OP (hey, that's you mosc!), posing the question "What is music?" - Isn't that asking for a definition? 
| mosc wrote: | | They even say they are "hard nosed" about it. They have a very concise definition for music and argue about the words. They seem like things tidy, well defined and unambiguous. |
This must refer to synthlord and myself. I disagree, and can't see how there was any 'arguing about the words'(?). Just laid back discussion... My part was worded in a slightly techie style, but that's just me - especially when challenged to explain or define something. It's always nice to think poeticallly about it, connecting notions of music to various moods, experiences, sights and so on. E.g. "...a sunset like a symphony.." is a nice notion, but it wouldn't really convince me that sunlight is music.
Edit to add: a related question may be "What do you associate with music?". That would bear anything as it's answer. Perhaps it has even been answered by many of the very interesting postings in this thread.
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mosc
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 7:03 am Post subject:
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| DrJustice wrote: | | hey, that's you mosc! |
Good point. I am similarly inclined. I feel more comfortable when things are tidy and well-defined.
| Quote: | | Just laid back discussion... |
That's all this is. We do not need to take this discussion too seriously, or worse, ouselves.
| Quote: | | "...a sunset like a symphony.." is a nice notion, but it wouldn't really convince me that sunlight is music. |
That's a good point. To me, a sunset can be like a symphony and it can fire off in my mind similar experiences that music can. So, I can consider it music. Maybe, you are right though; the sunset is similar to music.
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seraph
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject:
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I found this definition:
| Quote: | | music, biologically speaking, can be defined as a series of man-made sounds and noises that can be produced directly (singing, whistling, clapping hands) or indirectly, through the use of (proper and improper) musical instruments. It is a specific form of communication and as such it is connected to a series of codes. |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:30 am Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: | I found this definition:
| Quote: | | music, biologically speaking, can be defined as a series of man-made sounds and noises that can be produced directly (singing, whistling, clapping hands) or indirectly, through the use of (proper and improper) musical instruments. It is a specific form of communication and as such it is connected to a series of codes. |
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Thanks for that one. I realy like it. The "man-made" bit that you were quite right to accent might be open to debate from the "found sounds" and "fieldrecording" side of the world, they seem to be at the border of this definition which I think counts in it's favour because that's exactly where everybody -including them- wants them to be.
What I like about this is the emphasis on communication and the concept that the use of codes follows from this.
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seraph
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:25 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | Thanks for that one. I realy like it. The "man-made" bit that you were quite right to accent might be open to debate from the "found sounds" and "fieldrecording" side of the world |
it keeps going on:
| Quote: | a first emergent consideration is that no other living being produces music such as the one characterized by human codes. From here a number of corollary follows:
1) the inanimate world (wind, sea etc.) does not produce music but only a series of sonic events that can be imitated by music or can be part of music (for example through recording techniques).
2) the animal world (birds, crickets etc.) does not produce music but a series of sounds and noises that often are interspecific or intraspecific messages having, sometimes, an hedonistic value.
3) music, as an acoustic entity, may determine tangible and/or measurable consequences on the inanimate world or on the not human animal world, but obviously, not for its cultural value. |
from:
Acustica musicale e architettonica
Curato da Cingolani S., Spagnolo R.
UTET Libreria, 2004
freely translated by yours truly 
Last edited by seraph on Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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opg
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:36 am Post subject:
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| I rather like this definition, though it reminds me of Asimov's 3 laws for robots for some reason... |
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seraph
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:16 am Post subject:
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| seraph wrote: | 2) the animal world (birds, crickets etc.) does not produce music but a series of sounds and noises that often are interspecific or intraspecific messages having, sometimes, an hedonistic value.
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This sounds rather vague to me. I don't see how the "hedonistic value" affects anything. If we compare crickets to bootybass musicians then we can say that the crickets are probably comunicating something along the lines of "I'm over here, come over here too and make small crickets with me" or "I'm a especially loud cricket and so suitable as a mate" which I don't find all that different from booty bass's message which generally goes roughly along the lines of "demonstrate to me you are a good potential mate" (often phrased alnong the lines of "shake your X") or even "come be my mate". The difference isn't that a speciffic message is involved or that there is a "hedonistic element", the difference is that booty bass has aesthetic qualities aside from it's hedonistic message. Actually I think that when push comes to shove the booty bass musicians are bound to be more, not less, hedonistic in their message since I highly doubt crickets are advanced enough to separate the recreational from the reproductive.
I don't realy see how this affects what is or isn't music. It doesn't seem that much more profound then determining a politician's public adress isn't music. If he'd sing it insted then we'd probably call it music, even if the reason for singing it would be political in nature.
| Quote: |
3) music, as an acoustic entity, may determine tangible and/or measurable consequences on the inanimate world or on the not human animal world, but obviously, not for its cultural value. |
Erm, yeah? Erm, I don't get this at all. Does this imply that if we are wondering wether a given sound is "music" then we need to see if it affects anything and if so wether it does so for it's cultural value? So basically the cricket convention of rubbing your wings to signify you'd like to mate isn't culture while human serenades below balconies are? That seems like a rather arificial line to me and more of a opinion then some inherent property of music. I don't see why this writer is so scared of the fact that sounds could have reasons and effects asides from their aesthetics.
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seraph
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:38 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: |
| Quote: |
3) music, as an acoustic entity, may determine tangible and/or measurable consequences on the inanimate world or on the not human animal world, but obviously, not for its cultural value. |
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well...for example, my beloved dog Cosmo (r.i.p.) used to howl when listening to my voice imitating animal noises that I had recorded for some children songs I had written. So my music had tangible and measurable consequences on my dog but obviously, not for its cultural value 
Last edited by seraph on Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:48 am; edited 2 times in total |
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mosc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:44 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | I highly doubt crickets are advanced enough to separate the recreational from the reproductive. |
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:03 am Post subject:
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I still don't see how that affects what is or isn't music.
For example. If we were to take a sailor's parrot that would continually blurt out vulgar words and would put it at a polite tea party (obviously for purely scientiffic reasons and under strictly controlled conditions) then there would be outrage. That outrage would clearly be for cultural reasons. If we would then take a different tea party and play a recording of bootybass then there would also be outrage, also for cultural reasons yet the booty bass is music and the parot isn't.
The difference isn't just in the cultural aspect but also in the intention and I think this definition skips over that. Your usage of animal sounds were music because of their intention. Your dog my have barked at them but I don't think that matters much more then that they would have made the dishes move if played loud enough. Sure, they do, but that doesn't change or affect anything.
I think the culture comes in as a aspects of the "codes" and the "comunication" mentioned previously but if no comunication to a some animal or object is intended then I don't think the whole culture business matters at all. I think your book is just mudying the waters after getting off to a good start.
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:07 am Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | Kassen wrote: | | I highly doubt crickets are advanced enough to separate the recreational from the reproductive. |
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Ok, that was pure specualtion. Ok, actually I was surprised by the word "hedonistic" in this context.
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seraph
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:09 am Post subject:
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| Kassen wrote: | | I think your book is just mudying the waters after getting off to a good start. |
how did you know the author is Muddy Waters 
btw...my dog has always been a polite one except for pissing on Jehovah's Witness pants
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mosc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:12 am Post subject:
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It's all about sex. Zappa said he started playing music because it attracted the girls. Who is a better authority?
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:31 am Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | Who is a better authority? |
Liberace?
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Kassen
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:21 am Post subject:
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| mosc wrote: | | It's all about sex. Zappa said he started playing music because it attracted the girls. Who is a better authority? |
So did Leonard Cohen (though his emphasis is different and probably was less successfull then Zappa's, I think even Suzane was maried to somebody else).
Actually it seems that playing music in general came from that. This is also what made the crickets such a facinating example. I'm fine with calling crickets "not music" but then we need to be very carefull for what reason it's "not music" because we don't want to lose serenades, lovesongs and bootybass in the process.
Still; like much of human culture a lot of it evolved quite far from the mating and courting origins. I'd be hard-pressed to find the sex in -say- a fuga but then again, fugue make a bad example because it's very clear that they are music according to any definition.
To go from hedonist crickets (I'm still amused by those) and potty mouth parrots to more modern music; isn't it amusing that of old young men aparently used music in order to persue sexuality while many modern composers such as the ever popular miss Spears are uing implied sexuality in order to sell msuic?
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mosc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:24 am Post subject:
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I imagine one could make a lot of conclusions about one's sex life by the music they make. I'm a bit reluctant to put forth examples; I leave that as an exercise. 
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deknow
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject:
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i haven't been following this closely, but just read through the last bunch of posts.
how would something like the thai elephant orchestra fit in?
http://www.mulatta.org/Thaielephantorch.html
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seraph
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject:
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| deknow wrote: |
how would something like the thai elephant orchestra fit in?
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that's exactly what the doctor ordered it should be featured on the "Incredibly Strange Music" saga
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seraph
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject:
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Dunno..
| Quote: | | I imagine one could make a lot of conclusions about one's sex life by the music they make. |
+
| Quote: | | how would something like the thai elephant orchestra fit in? |
OMG!
I am sure this is a punishable crime in many states.
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mosc
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject:
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These elephants are hot stuff...
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seraph
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:
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why they write "thai elepant orchestra"?
it should be "tai elepant orcestra" or "thai elephant orchestra" |
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